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10-28/22:10 Hagbard: And yet a conclusive shieldwall capture!
edmond-dantes and casshern lead the top final, 1 point. 10-28/18:42 Hagbard: A conclusive shieldwall capture! 10-28/17:52 Casshern: @edmond-dantes: thank you for fixing that typo, or was it a typo? It was a beautiful victory! I fear my men have entered Valhalla in vain. Perhaps, if I had played g11-i11 on move 19 our battle would still be raging. None the less, you saw the path victory and took it, well played! 10-28/17:08 edmond-dantes: wowwwwwwwwww 10-28/17:06 Hagbard: First game finished in top final! : Edmond-dantes / Casshern 10-28/17:05 edmond-dantes: me* 10-28/17:01 edmond-dantes: I just sent the Casshern soul in Valhalla.The Gods were with men 10-28/15:37 Hagbard: Most active player: edmond-dantes (most moves) 10-26/08:09 Hagbard: 10 players of 28 have not started Round 2 yet 10-25/16:56 Hagbard: First game finished in Round 2: Hagbard / Thanir 10-25/11:50 Hagbard: Most active player: OdinHimself (most moves) 10-25/00:37 sqAree: Have fun in the final! I'm looking forward to getting stomped. :) 10-25/00:36 Casshern: Good luck to everyone in round 2! Every group looks well balanced, which should make for some great viking battles! 10-25/00:23 Hagbard: First move of Round 2 was made by edmond-dantes, and a minute later Thanir, and a minute later casshern 10-25/00:21 Hagbard: Welcome to the 28 players proceeding to the long-awaited Round 2 of the Hnefatafl World Championship tournament 2017!
Please be aware of the timing, which is the same as in Round 1:
- The time buffer is 8 days.
- When a game length exceeds 10 days, then over the next 10 days the time per move is gradually reduced from the initial 1 day to 0.
- (But even if a player has no time buffer left, he has always 1.25 day to do his current move.)
In this top final, one could say that OdinHimself and edmond_dantes represent all Eastern Europe and the Odin club in Kyustendil, Bulgaria. Animals represents UK and the Fornebei Herfolk club in Formby, UK. Casshern represents all of America, sqAree Germany and Plantagenet France. And you all represent the WTF!
Have fun! 10-24/17:32 Marcin: @OdinHimself: Thanks. I learn from the best players. 10-23/18:19 Adam: 10-12/16:27 edmond-dantes said: what is the reason why the four world champions from 2013 until now do not try to defend their titles? Why do they surrender without a fight?
10-13/16:24 edmond-dantes said: I can not understand why "Nath" "Schachus" "Adam" "Herjan" did not defend their world titles
I cant speak for the others, but I did defend the title I won in 2015, and got a royal kicking in the 2016 final by Herjan! I chose not to play this year for health reasons that meant my availability and playing ability would likely be compromised. It was a hard decision, but the right one. All being well, Ill be diving back into the fray next year! I agree that its best if a reigning champ can join the following tournament and fight to maintain their crown, but this isnt always possible, in which case the crown is being handed down to the years best player. 10-23/18:17 Adam: Thanks to Nath for starting so many vigorous and interesting discussions. As Aage has taken the trouble to create a large forum for detailed discussion, would it be a good idea to take these many topics there, perhaps under the following headings: Openings, Understanding Hnefatafl (Strategy/tactics), Game Balance revisited, Rule wording, Repetition Rule simplification, Tafl AI, Time limits, World Championship play structure, and Live games? We already have some of these, and hierarchies in place for those we dont. It gets very difficult to follow complex discussions in this linear chat window. Anyone feel like seconding this motion? 10-23/18:12 Adam: speaking as Umpire: Tuireann is disqualified for timing out more than half of their games. Round 2 to start Oct. 25 with players distributed as follows:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering_runde2_2017.php 10-23/17:14 OdinHimself: What I see is Marcin have made a great progress. Congrats warrior! 10-23/16:42 sqAree: @edmond-dantes: Never comment on ongoing games! But now that it is finished I can say I believed I had a lost position (when you asked). 10-23/16:36 Hagbard: All Round 1 is finished! 10-23/16:28 Hagbard: TO UMPIRE: Requested Tuireann disqualified for timing out more than half of the games, and Round 2 to start Oct. 25 with players distributed this way:
(Tuireann, I had hoped to see you in Round 2!) 10-22/23:21 Hagbard: @edmond-dantes: Understandable. But the end is near of the Marcin / Sqaree game 10-22/12:32 edmond-dantes: @Hagbard:start a second round that the wait kills me... 10-22/02:58 altti: I concede your point. i'm glad you got to the core of the subject. 10-21/15:24 Hagbard: Just for information about the last tourn. game. It looks like:
If Sqaree wins: Sqaree goes to the top final.
If Marcin wins: Both Sqaree and Animals go to the top final. 10-20/17:16 edmond-dantes: @Sqaree:sorry for my question, but do you have a winning position in the last game? 10-20/15:40 nath: Here's the last part:
On top of that there is commentary at all about the question when one should focus more on a single corner and when try focus on multiple ones at the same time or phasing it from the black side of things when to limit the king mobility and when try to secure specific corners/edges of the board.
Tbh this is a question where top players disagree on a lot, but none the less there are common ideas that shape their though process even though judgment about the importance drastically varies.
Even just explaining the most basic concepts in a manner where it's easy to grasp, would take far more than the triple amount of characters the two guides you mentioned currently have.
I'd gladly contribute, I don't feel that I am good at getting examples that demonstrate the concept in a way such it's easy to grasp... 10-20/15:37 nath: @altti: Let's talk about the interesting theory part! :)
Afaik there are a ton of concepts without publicly available guides about.
Regarding the sources you just mentioned: The most obvious thing to be is
that there is no introduction to edge win forts at all - neither how look,
nor how they are build correctly, no guide how to force weakness upon a
special edge, nor specific examples how to stop white from building one.
Second there is no comparison of different defensive patterns listing
advantages and disadvantages of the single pattern and ideas how to
disrupt the individual building series of the pattern. Even if the
destination pattern is the same there are a ton of different way to get
there which call for different counterplay from white to exploit different
I don't bother so much that there is no list of common opening sequences,
I much rather mind that there is no explanation of common opening ideas.
Besides from that there a few strategic rules that seem to be used by a
few (but even not all) of the player you'd call *strong* (I don't intent
to argue about the word in this response), mainly methods for measuring
the importance of second and third rows, but as well the concept of sparse
rows. 10-20/15:36 nath: @altti: Sorry, I was very busy recently.
To me it's dull to play a game where you know that the exact move doesn't matter anyways unless somebody makes a huge mistake. If there's a big set of best moves (besides the counters of obvious short term wins like blocking a one move escape from a king) obviously don't effect the outcome of the game, it seems dull to me. That itself isn't connected to winning or loosing in itself.
I think it's public knowledge that players who care about winning tend to play out even such positions quite much, since they care about the question who wins (a big likelihood doesn't have to materialize if the other player doesn't care enough and hence has different priority), not just how interesting the position is as a analytical question.
I didn't get bored of winning since I was never interested in the winning in the first place. I don't think the theoretical question is of philosophical nature, but you think I personally never really wasn't interested in anything else.
Altogether I am sorry, I tried to make you understand me and made you read that long text... 10-20/12:46 Steiger: Kratzer, thanks for your support, my friend! 10-20/06:42 OdinHimself: Nice! 10-19/20:00 Hagbard: New in gallery: Kratzer's board collection. 10-17/12:38 Hagbard: Mange tak!!! 10-17/12:37 OdinHimself: Thank you Hvding! Lad Odin fylde dine net med sild! 10-17/12:30 Hagbard: correct 10-17/12:18 OdinHimself: @Hagbard: So, games marked as No Timing are also Not Rated, correct? 10-17/07:18 Hagbard: @OdinHimself: yes No Timing appears an important option. 10-17/00:34 altti: if there are a series of moves which have not been analyzed I will eat my words. 10-16/00:10 altti: you seem to be very good at making the proper moves required to result in victory. it's not dull to play from a challenged position. is it dull to play from a superior position? are you so bored with winning that you need to seek some philosophical positions on the tafl board? I think we already have a statistical analysis of all the games played up to last year. it was quite enlightening, as are crusts' and cyningstans overview of strategy. there you may find your answers. 10-15/23:00 Hagbard: @xerxes: On the "My current games" page, green field at the bottom "Show my games and time buffers", click Enter there. 10-15/22:59 nath: @Plantagenet: I never said it is. I said that I'd rather expect it to be in favor of black from my subjective perspective and the way my games play out.
Yet this might be related to personal tendencies we both share. My gut feeling tells me otherwise, but I don't yet have the data to back it up.
I don't think this gut feeling (even if it's common along the top players), is quite enough to request a change of rules. If it would be a given that if someone sits down at a table, any white player had less than 5 % of winning, things would stand differently. But looking at recent games of you, we aren't there yet. Just to name one particular issue that should have been addressed first in my opinion, as things stand we haven't fully embraced the edge fort as natural part of opening strategy yet. We are not measuring the impact this shape has on the game, if we are just dismissing it as a mere endgame scenario. Pressure isn't just related to third row tactics, that can be suppressed - at least judging from your performance. The conclusions we arrived back in 2013 were similar, yet we weren't even completely sure about tactical corner assaults.
I think we should further understand the nature of this game before jump to changing the rules that drastically. What you suggested is a completely different game. I don't want to stop anybody from trying that out, but I don't think the results reveal anything particular about the Copenhagen rulese 10-15/22:34 nath: @altti: I can play the psyche game - it's quite common at tournaments. Yet this isn't pushing the playstyle of the community forward.
I think the main difference is that I don't personify the winning nor the move. It's not relevant for me who makes the move nor whether he wins with that. It comes down to the concept of a strong position that any decent player can win regardless of the opponent strength nor psyche. I don't care if somebody wins more by executing these positions in a more stable way.
I don't care about executing dull positions (which is a part of victory - looking at your playstyle you care about that a lot), I rather care about interesting positions and devote my time trying to understand them.
If you care about victory, you care a lot about stability and a special player. I care about pushing the understanding of the community which shouldn't necessarily increase the chance of victory for a particular player, since I want free access to resources by all players. 10-15/19:36 xerxes: @Hagbard: Is there a way I can find out how much buffer time I have left in a particular game ? 10-15/14:32 OdinHimself: Hagbard, thank you for non-rated/non-limted games, I think this will help a lot! Now many strong players who care about their rating and free time could play against each other without concerns. This is going to be the beginning of the new tafl age! 10-15/10:51 Plantagenet: I indeed think Hnefatafl is unbalanced to white and you said yourself the same thing two years ago. 10-15/00:18 Hagbard: casshern won all Round 1 games. 10-14/21:58 altti: are we talking about making the best possible move that will result in an ultimate victory? then we are talking about winning. if you make that move quickly it can disturb your opponent. (though waiting for an opponents move can set one to second thoughts. that reveals ones own doubts.) this is a psyche game, as is chess.
as far as the caliber of opponents - challenge those you wish to play. there are other sites to test as well. 10-14/20:30 nath: @Plantagenet: What do you think is unbalacned about the game? What problem are you trying to solve? I think everybody is trying to solve different problems. I am trying to simplify rules, since I have no idea about which side is having the upper hand.
@Steiger: I doubt rules are very interesting. But I'd very much like to write something about strategy and tactics. I have some ideas what to write about, but I always fail at getting decent examples for the principles I introduce to demonstrate the effects. If somebody wants to do a joined projects regarding a book about strategies, I'd be very happy...just contact me in that case. 10-14/20:25 nath: I don't want a player to stay on top, since he INVESTED so much, but I much rather like him to stay because he INVESTS so much. Especially openings seem much like a collaborative process to me than the brilliant mind of a single player. 10-14/20:25 nath: @edmond-dantes: I also want to question whether chess actually ended. Not long ago the current chess world champion (Carlsen) hold the three popular world champion titles (normal (2+ hours), fast (15+ min), lighting (5 min)). I watched a lot of his games and sometimes with commentary. It's hilarious what other grand masters say about his opening style. Quite often the commentator mentions "this is a very passive move". His positions after the openings are quite frequently bad (often even worse to what I play at my bad level). But the opponent can't read to far ahead, since he just plays anything no matter whether it's called strong or not. His midgame play is something else. He just sits down and plays what he likes. The game is more alive than ever.
I notice we have a completely different view regarding how things should be.
You seem think that winning is the relevant thing, the great thing one plays for. You further suggest that winning should be granted to those who put in the biggest amount of hard work.
I am different, since I don't play for winning. I also think being able to win should be regarded as a gift and not as sweat. I don't mind sweating training with my gift, but I don't take skill for granted just if I invest some work.
At the same time I want to gift the community with my work and not myself. I want to encourage other players to keep working to push the game and the community forward. I don't want a player to stay o 10-14/20:24 nath: @edmond-dantes: I never minded any of these. The rating at this site isn't the best, but that's not the issue at hand.
Please note that the current "solution" is not at all what I suggested, I just think it's better than what we currently have.
Besides - Hnefatafl has simpler rules than chess, but the game itself is more complicated. Humanity has solved a lot of games that are supposed to be more difficult (even though chess is simpler). Hnefatafl is special in two ways: It's very hard to determine who has the upper hand. I don't know know a player who's able to see that in "normal" positions. Games like Chess, Shogi or Xianqui have the simple metric "just cound how has move material". That doesn't apply to Hnefatafl. It's also impossible to compare the progress black and white made, since the game asymmetric nature. You are underestimating the complexity of Hnefatafl.
The complexity in openings in chess is much older than engines - that's not at all related.
It#s true that chess has a notable amount of theory, but that didn't kill the game at all. It's true that there are some experts out there who win the games in endgames a lot. But winning the game in the middlegame ist still possible (and happens) at any skillevel. Winning in the opening on contrary happens quite rarely even if one player doesn't know the opening. Sine players who don't know the opening doesn't follow the lines...
I also 10-14/20:11 nath: @altti: The correspondence chess players aren't strong in 2 hour games. Besides I don't see how that is related to any earlier discussion we had. Non the less, I like the idea of more games that played in a live manner like edmond-dantes does a lot.
The point I made regarding the time limit is, that cutting the limit down to 1.25 days just help players that focus their entire life on the game, since I doubt that any of our players spent more than 11 hours on a single move. It's just helping players with no live and/or few open games. 10-14/17:53 altti: strong chess players are strong under time constraints as well. 10-14/16:38 Hagbard: A word of notice: Round 2 could be ready to start anytime now. When the day comes where the umpire can give the GO, I'd request that it starts with only one day delay. That is, if the umpire fx. says ready today, then the round starts the day after tomorrow, so that all players are in place and ready. 10-14/15:06 Plantagenet: I did offer new rules for Hnefatafl but noone wanted to apply them because, in their view, it would complicate the game while they didn't account for the rules' complexity of other games like Xiang Qi. Since, I think I make these ones more simple: Copenhagen rules + King may make a short orthogonal jump over one of his own men from or to restricted squares + King is captured against a cormer square by one opponent + Black can't cross over the throne.
I still don't know if it's enough for counterbalancing the game. 10-14/13:05 Hagbard: New in gallery: photos from a board game picnic in Ukraine. 10-14/10:11 edmond-dantes: @nath: when we want a game to have a competitive character there is a must-have time factor and rating there is no way 10-14/10:07 edmond-dantes: @nath keep in mind that the game does not have many initial variations as a whole. The complexity is far less than chess, the game is much simpler. The engine will kill the game, because the game will end. You see in chess how the top chess players play 20-30 moves theory, and the game is won or lost only at the end. Developing a new starting line takes a lot of time and effort on the discoverer but then everyone is already using the news on ready. I am against keeping the game database as a new player for two months can see winning sewn lines and beat the best players who have made hard work 10-14/09:51 Hagbard: Looks like casshern qualified for the top final 10-14/07:24 Steiger: Write a new book about tafl rules and strategies ;-) 10-14/04:21 nath: @Kratzer: At one point in time I thought about making an own website, but I didn't want to split our small community. I don't mind putting effort into organizing an tournament, but if our community splits we are even off worse. I don't mind competitive players - they might even help we with that dream moving forward. Despite that I never was and never will be a competitive player myself. I rather study interesting moves.
@OdinHimself: I can't promise that I will be able to give you that new meaning. But I am confident if we work on it, we will find it along the way.
I'll try to get accustomed again, I played less than 4 games in the last 3.5 years. Then I'll try to push forward further. If anybody has specific ideas about how to get some decent materials about strategies out or how help players learning curve in general, how to try out new moves or is interested in building an engine let me know. 10-14/00:20 nath: The character limit is quite hard to foresee...I always have to type half of messages again and again...
It's quite the opposite. I care about learning and understanding Hnefatafl. I want to learn from other players. I want to learn and push the community with my knowledge. So please surprise me!
@edmond-dantes: Regarding the titles: I fought against Schachus. I found in him what I was looking (and am looking for again): a player that is stronger than I am. I don't hope to archive the great level of white play he showed back then, yet he was a good teacher regarding the white pieces to me.
I know to this very day that he was stronger back then than I am now (or will be this year). What's the point in holding a title if you only hold it because the stronger players aren't interested?
Both Schachus and me were very annoyed about the short times. That pushes hard and consequently sabotages high quality play. You notice that Schachus lost less than a hand full of games at this site before the new time limit came and all his games timed out. 10-14/00:01 nath: @edmond-dantes: I don't think quite got what I wanted to say. I never claimed that I's be strong - I am not. I never complained about not having any players that are able to challenge me at this website. That might have been true for 2012 and 2015/16, but that doesn't mean I was the strongest player (since I was not).
I am not saying I understand even the most basic things about this game, since I am not. I'm not even complaining about the fact that nobody does. I am only wording my concerns about developing play. I want to develop beyond a level of weak players (the level I currently have).
I am a rather weak chess player, but yet I am a by far stronger chess player than Henfatafl player. The fact that a new player is able to compete in the world championships final after two months rather proves my point - there is no school building up this game.
I am puzzled about that fact that openings look quite what we developed back in 2013. Even some of the mistakes we fixed up during the winter 2013/2014 weren't adopted. I don't think this a problem in it self - it's just another symptom for the state this community is in.
People play for entirely different reasons. If one doesn't want to become a strong player that's a perfectly fine way to be. Yet I care about the development of strategies and tactics. I was always looking to develop a game and a community at the same time.
That doesn't mean that I care to win, quite to opposit 10-13/18:12 Hagbard: Looks like 28 players qualified for Round 2. 10-13/18:10 Hagbard: @Kratzer: that's right, the Variegated Man must move to capture 10-13/17:34 OdinHimself: Thank you Kratzer, thank you Hagbard, thank you Edmond-dantes. Titles mean a lot. I'd lie if I say titles and ratings are not important. Probably this is the reason previous tafl champions to avoid defending their titles and stay "Undisputed". But this is something I understand and accept. I am ready to lose all if this is the price for upgrading Hnefatafl and me as a player. I am eager to find out if there is another higher level of playing. To discover the unknown if there is something hidden from us. If nath could help us to find a new meaning of tafl, we all should stay beside him and give our effort, even if it turns into a perennial quest. All for one and one for all is what I profess! 10-13/16:30 Kratzer: @ OdinHimself: Well spoken, tafl brother! 10-13/16:24 edmond-dantes: I can not understand why "Nath" "Schachus" "Adam" "Herjan" did not defend their world titles 10-13/16:23 Kratzer: @ Hagbard: Now, pieces still have to move to beat a warrior in Alea Berserk, right? If a Variegated Man shifts, he won't beat a then sandwiched piece, does he? 10-13/15:50 edmond-dantes: @ nath:I do not understand how you are interested in the development of the game you do not play. Progress has when the strong players play with the weak so the weak are developing, the competition is developing and the game develops and popularizes (example how OdinHimself did with me and the result is visible participation in the final, only for two months play).You are not right that everyone is weak and you will soon be convinced ... 10-13/15:40 edmond-dantes: yes, we need to thank Hagbard for the effort it puts for the site. But in the future you can really think about the shape of the championship. Now I think it is not in the best format 10-13/15:01 Hagbard: Of course. There's the "No timing" option for project games. It could easily be extended into No timing + No rating. 10-13/14:51 OdinHimself: This has turned into a Nordic Thing, so I will speak as Hovding infront of the meeting. I don't like the things I love to be ridiculed. Hnefatafl is an important part of my life. Our community is important for me, I respect every single tafl player and became friend with many of you. I respect everyone's opinion. If there is a way for developing our game I want to help finding it. No need of harsh words. Let's work as team, as tribe, as tafl brothers. I am asking Hagbard if he could create new distinct working group, a project, with non-rated and non-limited games, where volunteers could play against each other only with educational purpose. Main goal - improving our beloved game. Skal! 10-13/14:48 Kratzer: Thank you. Oh, wow, that's interesting! 10-13/14:40 Hagbard: C=Commander
V=Variegated Man (when captured, he's not killed but shifts color)
K=Knight 10-13/14:38 Kratzer: @ Hagbard: I think I missed something ... What do the 3 letters mean in Alea Berserk (C, V, K)? 10-13/12:45 altti: sorry I'm so slow on the pick up. seems to me you wish only to play a single game against the single winner of the rest of us so as not to be bothered by the tedium. if you want to play... play. if you want to win.... play. 10-13/12:28 animals: Maybe a Grand Masters tournament could be arranged, every few years, to allow new Grand Masters to see how they rate against old Grand Masters. 10-13/09:41 Kratzer: @ nath: I find your propositions for new tournament rules very interesting. Maybe that should be discussed further in the forum?
Besides, I would not go as far as to say "fun tournament", "doesn't even care to learn", "no strong players". Sorry, but how can you know that if you do not participate? Maybe some of us would have surprised you. Not me though ;) 10-13/09:00 Kratzer: @ nath: Thanks for your input. You know, this a small web community with a lot of fluctuation. People come, people go. Why not create a blog or website of your own? To make this professional one would have to collect and centralise as much information about strategy as possible in one place and attract the masterminds of the game. Right now, it's all over the web, with crust, mmagari, Mr. Nielsen's website and a lot more. You tell us that your time is very limited well, I think that applies to most of us. I am not and will probably never be one of the "strong players" you mention, but that does not mean I am not interested in their insights and lore 10-13/03:23 altti: this is a relatively new organization, wanting in bureaucracy or even participants. It has not yet grown into a system such as the Chess Federation, which functions the way you describe tournament play. The host is one man, the rest of us are visitors on his site. This is an autocracy. I'm sure he welcomes the input but there are no bodies to handle the work to organize beyond what he already does. this is my personal assumption. 10-13/01:00 nath: Since I got cut off, I will post that paragraph again:
I don't want to strip the public of their fun tournament. At the same time for me strong games are much more interesting to watch, so I want to encourage players to play them as much as possible. If one use an open tournament just for qualification purposes, one could get creative how to assign Valhll spots. For instance one could assign the looser of the last championship duel a fixed place, take the first four players of the tournament that didn't participate in last years duel and add in three players with the highest ranking that are not yet qualified.
That would add much more meaning to carry a title since you have it until you loose in a match for your title. It would also make for more games between skilled players, since it doesn't limit the ability at all to play skilled games, but also adding a lot more focus and empathy to the challenger and the orld champions game - not only because they carry a lot of weight, but also because they don't interfere with any other important games, so the players can devote all their thoughts to these games. 10-13/00:59 nath: @edmond-dantes: I can answer why I don't participate anymore. I stopped playing games with weird time limits, that put a harsh constraint on my daily schedule. Besides practically all of the games feel rushed in an unreasonable manner to me. I care about top level games, not about a title.
I don't see what I should defend. I am not the strongest player of the world and even if I would win that feels empty to me, since that is only because the really strong player don't participate anymore.
Besides defending doesn't quite cut it. There isn't a match for the title. There is just some abstract tournament that is good for 2-6 strong games tops...and a ton of games where the other side doesn't even care to learn. If we would really want to produce top level games, we would held an open qualifying tournament for the Valhll group, while the world champion isn't qualified for that. The winner of the Valhll group gets the right to challenge the current world champion - so you only get to become the new one if you actually beat the old one - then there would be something to defend. This way it's only an empty statement. I suggested that back in 2012/13, but nobody was listening.
I don't want to strip the public of their fun tournament, but at the same time for me strong games are much more interesting to watch, so I want to encourage players to play them as much as possible. If one use an open tournament just for qualification purposes, one 10-12/17:25 sqAree: Yes, I'm going to the final! If Animals reaches it as well doesn't depend on him anymore.. 10-12/16:27 edmond-dantes: what is the reason why the four world champions from 2013 until now do not try to defend their titles? Why do they surrender without a fight? 10-12/15:58 edmond-dantes: also Sqaree or Animals 10-12/15:38 edmond-dantes: We wait to see Casshern or Bigwurm91,maybe both of us and we go to Valhalla..... 10-12/13:44 Hagbard: 90% of Round 1 finished. 10-11/23:47 nath: I don't think no timing at all is the right answer, it's just about finding the right balance for the thing one is trying to archive. 10-11/14:41 OdinHimself: Sign me in! 10-11/14:30 Hagbard: A project group with no timing? 10-11/01:44 nath: In the unlikely event, anyone would be interested on my advice or thoughts on a specific position or a certain part of an (already ended) game, just sent me a notice, I'd gladly try to comment. 10-11/01:34 nath: The real reason I stopped playing here was because I noticed that I wasn't able to deliver halfway decent games with these new tight time limits. I just can't log in every day unless I make very drastic changes to my weekly schedule. I stopped playing after basically half my games timed out for several weeks. I don't care for the rating points I lost (they don't mean anything to me), but from time to time it even destroyed an interesting position.
If I could play games with longer time limit, I'd probably go for it. I'm interested in high quality games, not fast ones.
There are players much stronger than I am. I'm sorry for bringing up the title part at all - I am not interested in titles, but in developing the game and the player strength. But I can't do that alone. Unless we have a notable part of the community that actually wants that (that doesn't mean that they shouldn't care about sport or titles, but it means that they care about the development of strong play), it's in vain. 10-11/00:24 animals: @nath: Those "even worse Hnefatafl-players" could probably do with the benefit of regular competition against high ranking players like yourself. The "World Championship" can only be as good as it's participants. 10-10/22:54 nath: @Hagbard: While we are at it - since this is an highly asymmetric game, would you mind displaying the Game haphazardness statistics separately for the two colors? 10-10/22:44 nath: @Hagbard: Perpetual repetitions are forbidden: If the same position occurs more than three times while it's the same player to move, black wins.
That is a slightly different judging from what we currently have, but it's practically identical and obsoletes rules 7b, 8a, 8b, 10. It also removed a lot of really difficult decision whether rule 8b or rule 10 would be more accurate, since that's very hard to distinguish. Rules get much leaner, easily accessible to new players. And I think the emphasis gets more on the fearless viking battle and less on the draw side - it still sets me off that the answer to the question "Did the king escape?" is supposed to be "partially"... 10-10/22:33 nath: I'd also be particular interested in an AI project for Hnefatafl. I tried a few years ago and failed, but I am always eager to help, provide feedback or join forces with a person, who's eager to produce a strong Hnefatafl Engine.
I'd be also ready to set a small incentive for an AI that truly challenges me even after a few matches.
Contact me if you are interested in any of these. 10-10/22:26 Hagbard: @nath: how would you write the rules 7 and 8? 10-10/22:26 nath: chess balance would be better if you include players that are labeled *strong* according to our Hnefatafl metric. I am a weak chess player, but I am still a lot better at chess and yet I was granted the title of grandmaster (and even worse Hnefatafl-players were).
Correlation doesn't imply causation.
Regarding understanding Hnefatafl we aren't in child stages. We are still in infant stages.
I won't demand something unreasonable as not calling grandmaster (even though that title doesn't mean require understanding the basic concepts), but I am rater asking whether I am the only one that cares about pushing the strategy (and maybe tactics) side of the game. I'd be thrilled about more players being able to challenge me with the white pieces, but I'd have to lie if should name about five people who managed to threaten me the slightest bit with that color and most of these players are the same regarding that. Yet your statistics show an advantage for the white color.
Grandmasters are weak and yet your statistics aren't reliable for even that set of weak players anymore. Don't you want to look behind the scenes and grasp the true meaning of certain openings, moves and strategys? 10-10/11:50 Adam: @Nath, We are all waiting eagerly if you have any new suggestions to all these interesting points. The first two are ongoing and the rate of development depends on the caliber of players active on the site. Regarding the last, I think most agree to allow the long term and ever improving statistics be the judge of game balance. Any of the games considered roughly balanced by the statistics have a balance that is fine enough that new tactics or response to tactics can send the needle back and forth between black and white winning. I think the finest tafl balance has even beaten chess balance, though that may have changed since I last checked. 10-09/21:29 Hagbard: The large forum is open for new registerings for three days. 10-09/21:25 nath: Is there anybody still trying to improve openings? Is there anybody still striving to get a grasp of this game? Is there anybody still looking for the answer whether black or white has the upper hand?
Is there anybody else who is still annoyed by the complex wording of the really simple rules 7 and 8 of Copenhagen Rules? 10-09/15:13 Hagbard: The quote I used, Winston Churchill November 1942:
"Now this is not the end.
It is not even the beginning of the end.
But it is, perhaps,
the end of the beginning." 10-09/15:07 steiger: No, I don't know 10-09/14:29 Hagbard: Знаете ли цитату Черчилля в Украине? 10-09/11:09 OdinHimself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77RVbm0cPS0
The beginning - Ragnark is comming, of the end - Twilight of the gods 10-09/06:33 steiger: Is this the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end?
Losing Control or are you winning?
Is your life real or just pretend? 10-08/07:36 Hagbard: 81% of all Round 1 champ. tourn. games are finished!
Now this is the beginning of the end! 10-08/07:34 Hagbard: Grtharki first group to finish Round 1. 10-06/17:02 OdinHimself: Of course he did! 100% success rate for Hnefatafl SC "Odin"! Two players, two top finalists! Thumbs up! :) 10-06/16:12 Hagbard: Looks like edmond-dantes qualified for the top final. 10-06/06:53 Hagbard: OdinHimself and Plantagenet won all Round 1 games. 10-04/12:12 OdinHimself: Yes! First Bulgarian player qualified for World Championship finals ever! I'm pretty sure Edmond-Dantes will be the next one! :) 10-04/12:03 Hagbard: Looks like OdinHimself qualified for the top final. 10-04/09:52 Bigwurm91: I apologize ahead of time for my slow games. Been a bit busy. I wish the best of luck to everyone for the remainder of the tourney! 10-04/08:57 Hagbard: All players have finished one or more games of Round 1. 10-03/22:16 Hagbard: @players from Formby: Do you know who won the Thor's Hammer this year? And by which rules? 10-03/10:24 OdinHimself: Amazing! Shared on Facebook! 10-03/09:29 Hagbard: Elizabeth's Kitchen Diary's report from the Unst Viking Festival 2017 Sep. 2-3rd:
https://www.elizabethskitchendiary.co.uk/2017/09/unst-viking-festival-2017.html/ 10-03/07:09 Hagbard: Looks like Plantagenet is first to qualify for the Valhalla top final!
(Looks like, because it all has to be confirmed by the umpire before Round 2.) 10-01/16:35 OdinHimself: Great! Shared this on Facebook. :) 10-01/10:16 Hagbard: Newspaper article about the Formby market Saturday:
http://www.southportreporter.com/831/831-1.shtml#axzz4uF51jfid 10-01/08:27 Hagbard: jrton80 first to finish all Round 1 games 09-30/07:16 Hagbard: edmond-dantes 8 points 09-29/17:05 Hagbard: Half of Round 1 is finished! 09-29/15:36 Hagbard: Plantagenet also 8 points 09-28/08:13 Hagbard: Waegn finished 9 games 09-26/17:09 Hagbard: Warnings about slow games are not far away! 09-26/16:47 Agmundr: Only two games finished in the Markland group! A nightmare for one that likes faster games! :) 09-26/09:01 Hagbard: So who won Hammer of Thor? 09-25/13:30 Hagbard: More from Formby market:
http://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/formby-stage-viking-medieval-market-13623116 09-24/18:31 edmond-dantes: I have not actually counted a black move. the two shortest games ended in 16 moves 09-24/18:22 edmond-dantes: we have a newest short game. And it is the game between Brent and Waegn,only 13 moves, adding 2 kill moves the sum is 15 moves
Congratulations..... 09-24/11:55 Hagbard: Grtharki is first group with half the games finished. 09-24/10:48 Adam: JKRS, tomsavini, gokstad, DoktorKarlsrud and Lbalassone will be removed from the champ. tourn. as 'no shows' in accordance with tournament rules. These games will not be counted. Umpire. 09-24/09:32 Hagbard: News from the home town of our champ. tourn. umpire of this year:
https://niku.no/en/2017/09/batgrav-yngre-jernalder-funnet-pa-torvet-trondheim/ 09-24/00:11 Hagbard: To umpire: requested that JKRS, tomsavini, gokstad, DoktorKarlsrud and Lbalassone can be removed from the champ. tourn. Nine days into the tourn. they haven't made any moves and the games are timed out. 09-21/21:53 Hagbard: 20% of all round 1 champ. tourn. games are finished!
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is the end of the beginning". 09-21/20:09 Hagbard: Grtharki did 1050 moves and 134 men were killed. 17 battles finished. 09-21/19:37 Hagbard: OdinHimself 8 points 09-21/19:13 OdinHimself: Grtharki group is the most active of all. Viking battles are raging on, sacrifices have been given to the gods of war, blood has been spilled and blured upon the pagan wooden idols... 09-21/19:06 OdinHimself: Thank you Edmont! You're doing quite well too! ;) 09-21/17:24 edmond-dantes: has just made a serious request for the final and world title 09-21/17:22 edmond-dantes: congratulations to my friend OdinHimself 09-21/15:47 OdinHimself: Meh-heh-heh... Temporary... 09-21/15:45 Hagbard: OdinHimself leads the score list with 7 points 09-20/18:41 Hagbard: and Hagbard 5 points 09-20/17:51 Hagbard: OdinHimself also 5 points 09-20/11:26 Hagbard: Large forum open three days for new registerings. 09-20/08:52 Hagbard: emabear35 first to qualify for 2nd round (half the games finished) 09-19/22:58 Hagbard: jrton80 is most active player 09-19/15:36 Hagbard: emabear35 is the most active player (most moves) 09-19/01:06 Hagbard: Plantagenet leads the score list with 5 points 09-18/20:31 Plantagenet: Plantagenet leads the score with 4 points followed by Hagbard. 09-18/12:27 Hagbard: Plantagenet also 3 points 09-17/23:33 Hagbard: Hagbard leads the score list with 3 points, yesterday the lead lasted ten minutes - 09-17/23:20 Hagbard: 5 players of 34 have not started yet 09-17/17:59 Hagbard: edmond-dantes also 2 points 09-17/15:08 Hagbard: Plantagenet also 2 points now 09-16/15:54 Hagbard: 8 players of 34 have not started yet 09-16/15:21 Hagbard: OdinHimself also 2 points now 09-16/15:00 OdinHimself: No, it didn't lol 09-16/14:50 Hagbard: Hagbard leads the score list with 2 points, I hurry to say that, as I'm sure it doesn't last long! 09-16/13:31 Hagbard: Last year the shortest Cop. game was 11 moves... 09-16/09:51 edmond-dantes: I wonder if this game will stay the shortest game of only 16 moves.is undoubtedly the first 09-16/09:38 edmond-dantes: GO Kyustendil,glory to a club ODIN .....:) 09-16/09:03 OdinHimself: Go, Bulgaria, go!!! Good job edmont!!! :) 09-16/08:41 Hagbard: And first player to make a move in the champ. tourn. was Thanir 09-15/23:48 Hagbard: First to finish a champ. tournament game: Edmond-dantes / Evando1189 09-15/17:43 Hagbard: Hagbard won the Brandubh weak-throne line 7x7 test tournament. 09-15/11:45 OdinHimself: Skal! 09-15/09:32 Adam: Good luck everyone. Thanks to Hagbard's brilliant programming I expect my role to be purely symbolic. But in cases where the rules or computer decisions are in dispute I will do my best deliver fair and final judgement. Lets have a clean fight, a bloody battlefield, and may the best viking win! 09-15/01:01 Hagbard: Welcome to the 34 players joining the Hnefatafl World Championship tournament 2017, and welcome to the tournament umpire Adam Bartley!
Please notice the timing, which is tightened since last year:
- The time buffer is only 8 days.
- When a game length exceeds 10 days, then over the next 10 days the time per move is gradually reduced from the initial 1 day to 0.
- (But even if a player has no time buffer left, he has always 1.25 day to do his current move.)
Have fun!! 09-14/19:14 Agmundr: This is War
I Lie Wounded on Wintery Ground
With Hundred of Corpses around
Many Wounded Crawl Helplessly around
On the Blood Red Snowy Ground..
Good luck to everyone!
May Trr give you strenght and dinn wisdom. 09-14/18:27 Hagbard: In 5.5 hours all hell breaks loose 09-14/15:28 OdinHimself: Are you ready for a waaaaaaarrrrr?!?!?!?!!!!! W. McWallas 09-14/12:15 Hagbard: Ded fomich won the Brandubh weak-throne 7x7 test tournament. The setup was too unbalanced, -2.1 09-14/08:53 edmond-dantes: OK THANKS 09-14/08:49 Hagbard: As for board positions, interesting idea. 09-14/08:34 Hagbard: @edmond-dantes: I did check those and also all the list. There are no signs of dublets, and as for those four, strong signs that they are different players. The four just happen to live not so far from each other in two areas. 09-14/08:33 edmond-dantes: is it possible to stop the function Current board positions during the championship.To be able to see the games only after their final.My idea is to stop third party intervention 09-14/08:24 edmond-dantes: please check all participants for double registrations....please 09-14/08:20 edmond-dantes: Hagbard I think you need to decide on the case Lbalassone-epm180 ,DoktorKarlsrud-AreVidar and similar now 09-13/08:01 Hagbard: NB Only today and tomorrow left to register for the tournament! 09-12/19:19 evando1189: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-12/11:16 Agmundr: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-10/22:57 Thanir: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-10/08:14 Hagbard: Currently active players not yet registered in the tournament:
auren, Agmundr, Kaagee, Torc 09-08/20:28 edmond-dantes: if so, this is not fair 09-08/11:44 Hagbard: Is Lbalassone the same as epm180?
Is DoktorKarlsrud the same as AreVidar? 09-07/21:05 Steiger: :D 09-07/20:32 Agmundr: Kihtan I believe you are registered for the World Championship Tournament 2017. :) 09-07/19:32 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-06/23:01 Hagbard: Remember that the World Championship tournament is for all tafl players and not limited to players who believe they could have a chance of winning it all.
It's the annual event where all the tafl community can come together and meet.
In Round 1 you'll meet a broad range of players, but in Round 2 you'll be with players of your own strength only. 09-06/19:21 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-06/19:00 Hagbard: 5, one from each group. Plus sometimes one extra, because if two winners of a group have exactly the same result, they both go.
If many more players register, there could be 6 groups instead of 5. 09-06/18:50 edmond-dantes: how many people go to Valhalla? 09-06/13:51 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-06/12:41 Hagbard: If the World Championship were to start now, the Round 1 groups would be:
Tuireann, Thanir, DoktorKarlsrud, Brench, Ozgen97, Kihtan, Plantagenet
AreVidar, Kratzer, casshern, JKRS, bigwurm91, Lbalassone, gokstad
OdinHimself, epm180, Waegn, MrTopom, Hagbard, Marcin
edmond-dantes, xerxes, altti, Patterson, Fraech, emabear35
Steiger, jrton80, animals, sqAree, tomsavini, Rasmusruge 09-06/12:30 Hagbard: 8 days registering still open for the World Championship 2017. And the "missing persons" list is:
Herjan, Crust, Sigurd, Tonythebook, Vonraider, Fairland, Agmundr, Mykle, Aluric, imaxuncut, Anto2016, Tamarisco, Torc, kAAgEE, cyningstan, Oddur, mmagari, Freyja, Helfrich, dayvigco, zagtharr23, bfelker, HotFudge, auren, Calidesert 09-06/11:26 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-06/11:12 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-06/11:08 Plantagenet: Yes, it has totally something to do with it. 09-06/06:34 Steiger: Your words warms my heart, Hagbard! 09-05/22:22 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-05/21:53 Hagbard: Best video ever on the internet on this theme. 09-05/21:42 Steiger: Thank you for posting my video, Hagbard! I'm very flattered! 09-05/21:26 Hagbard: ;) true. Perhaps Steiger's excellent hnefatafl board has something to do with it...! 09-05/21:22 OdinHimself: Hagbard, your dream came true! Plantagenet finally joined the tafl crew heading to battle and write the historical 2017 WTF Championship ! What I want to see is BLOOOOOOODDDD!!! EVERYWHERE!!! 09-05/21:11 Plantagenet: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-05/18:12 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-05/18:04 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-05/17:59 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-05/17:57 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-05/17:53 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-05/17:51 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-05/17:50 Kihtan: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-05/11:00 Hagbard: Fairland, remember to register for the tournament. 09-05/10:10 Hagbard: Lucho Panchev ("OdinHimself"), Bulgaria, tells about Hnefatafl in the scientific TV magazine Epohata na Vodoleya:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i_guzbRIxk 09-04/14:36 Ozgen97: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-04/14:35 Ozgen97: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-03/04:17 gokstad: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-02/15:11 Hagbard: Enjoy Steiger's video of tafl sets:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I69VLnYiGGs 09-02/10:53 Thanir: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 09-01/22:45 Hagbard: yes 09-01/20:39 Agmundr: I hope to join this historical battlefield soon. Have some work that have to been done first. Is it the 14th. that is the last chance? 09-01/17:26 Hagbard: Agmundr, Torc, auren, kAAgEE, Aluric, you've been practising the Copenhagen lately, do we see you at the tournament? 08-31/21:54 jrton80: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 08-31/21:23 Hagbard: I heard them on youtube now. Heavy stuff. The comments are good too, "My goldfish heard that song and it transformed into a shark". 08-31/21:05 OdinHimself: Varyags of Miklagaard set out from Svitjod's shores with dreams of fame and gold! They were loyal warriors that's the oath they gave - to protect the emperor even to a violent grave! Miklagaard was their home for twenty years or more, they had their axes, spears and swords in service of the emperor. Their loyality was always firm, they kept their given word, on these southern battlefields their northern war cries roared!... and so on Hagbard, you should listen more to Amon Amarth's songs lol. 08-31/20:39 Hagbard: A wild history! Miklagard means "the Big City" (Konstantinopel). 08-31/20:31 OdinHimself: Next group should be named Miklagard. We, Bulgarians, have lots of revenge to do against Byzantines. Also Harald Hardrada fought with his crew against our forces... "Blind, but still ferocious, Peter Delyan resumed command of the Bulgarians and led them into the final battle against Michaels forces, which included 500 Varangians under the leadership of 26-year old prince Harald. Norse sagas call Harald the devastator of Bulgaria, detailing his victory over the fierce Bulgarian army, led into battle by their blind, wild-bearded king, riding a warhorse and wielding an enormous sword. The fate of Peter Delyan is not known, but he likely perished in this final stand against the Byzantines." 08-31/18:00 Hagbard: Slavic speaking players will notice why the Kiev Rus state was called "Grtharki". It's the Slavonic word goroda, towns, Grtharki meaning "the country of towns". This area had in Viking age remarkably many, large towns, very unusual for that time. 08-31/17:40 Hagbard: (As Markland is a group name in honour of our American friends. It's the Viking name for the area north of Vinland) 08-31/17:38 Hagbard: (By the way, I guess you've discovered the group name Grtharki is in honour of the East European players. It's the Viking name for the Kiev Rus state) 08-31/17:23 Hagbard: Thanks for sending your thoughts to Adam. But I did speak with him, he's busy this year but will instead be the umpire of the tournament! 08-31/17:00 OdinHimself: Hagbard you forgot to add Adam on the missing names list. 08-31/08:56 Hagbard: Introduction to the "Brandubh weak-throne line 7x7" test tournament:
The Brandubh 7x7 balance is very thouroughly measured to +1.34
To see if it is possible to have a better balance for Brandubh, the protective power of the throne is weakened a bit:
On the throne the king must as before be surrounded by 4 attackers. But next to the throne, the king can now be killed by one attacker against the throne. 08-31/08:46 Hagbard: casshern won the Skalk strong-corners 9x9 test tournament. Not enough test games to be sure, but the games give a hint that the rules are too unbalanced towards black. If so, then this is yet another way in which "Skalk rules" don't work. 08-30/18:53 Hagbard: 16 days registering still open for the World Championship 2017. These names are missing on the list, among others:
Herjan, Crust, Sigurd, Tonythebook, Vonraider, Fairland, Agmundr, Mykle, Aluric, imaxuncut, Anto2016, Tamarisco, Torc, kAAgEE, Ded Fomich, cyningstan, Oddur, mmagari, Freyja, Helfrich, dayvigco, zagtharr23, bfelker, HotFudge, auren, Calidesert 08-30/15:34 Brench: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 08-30/14:42 Hagbard: If the World Championship were to start now, the Round 1 groups would be:
Steiger, AreVidar, casshern, DoktorKarlsrud, tomsavini, Marcin
OdinHimself, Tuireann, Thanir, Fraech, JKRS, emabear35
altti, Kratzer, MrTopom, bigwurm91, Rasmusruge
jrton80, animals, epm180, Hagbard, Lbalassone
edmond-dantes, xerxes, sqAree, Waegn, Patterson 08-26/14:22 Rasmusruge: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 08-25/13:06 Hagbard: Large forum opened three days for new registerings. 08-25/10:25 Hagbard: Until now we have for the Championship tournament 26 players from 13 countries, 6 USA states, 3 continents.
There's no limit to number of players, as the players are split in groups, so come on and join the party! 08-24/19:16 Marcin: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 08-23/17:19 Hagbard: A short introduction to the "Skalk 5thrones 9x9" test tournament:
The Ockelbo runestone showed what appears to be a tafl game with 5 king's squares (center and corners).
No good setup with historical rules has ever been found for such a game; the best one until now is the Expomedia with balance -1.72
We've already in vain tested all possible setups with corners as they're traditionally described in modern literature, that is king captured against a corner by one enemy piece.
This test tournament gives the corners identical power as the throne, in real a simplification of the board, 5 identical king's squares ("5 thrones").
Effectively the rules are just like before, only the king cannot anymore be captured against a corner.
So: King captured from 2 sides except in center, wins in corner, cannot be captured when next to a corner. 08-21/16:02 Lbalassone: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 08-15/23:16 Plantagenet: @Hagbard When will you create the Tawlbwrdd variant I offered you (Tawlbwrdd rules + Black can't cross over the throne)? 08-14/09:50 Hagbard: casshern won the Skalk Lewis diamond test tournament. 08-13/11:47 Hagbard: thanks! 08-13/11:34 edmond-dantes: Hagbard ;I found that Bersek is an interesting game 08-13/11:31 edmond-dantes: Interesting to me is what their results will be :) 08-13/11:31 Hagbard: Each year some (to us) new and unknown names have participated. Last year fx. bigwurm91 was unknown but even made it to the top final.
MrTopom is from France, DoktorKarlsrud from Norway, JKRS from Germany, emabear35 from UK and tomsavini from Italy. 08-13/11:19 edmond-dantes: Strangely, three players will play the championship without having played any Copenhagen game. Exclude tomsavini that stands with their real name. Can i know the others from which country they are? 08-10/09:05 Hagbard: Thanks. Championship tournament postponed till start September 15th, if no objections. 08-08/21:41 Hagbard: Notice the Play Live mode. This was the only way to play on this site until November 2011; only crust, Adam, Kratzer and my self remember those days.
The mode functions as it did then, with very similar time limits.
You have time to calmly play your game, five minutes to find a difficult move, and yet the timing ensures that the game in total does not take too long.
A useful mode, but at the moment only edmond-dantes, casshern and I use it. 08-08/15:25 Hagbard: Personally I like the Historical Hnefatafl on all the boards, except 7x7 Ard Ri which may not be the proper one found yet.
The Saami 9x9 board is a bit too small for a tournament, in my opinion.
The larger boards 13x13 and 15x15 give longer games, which is a problem on the internet where things take weeks or sometimes months...
So I would try the Tawlbwrdd 11x11; or possibly after all the 13x13 to get a more complex play. 08-08/15:09 Ded Fomich: @Hagbard What are your thoughts in general about the Historical Hnefatafl tournament? What tafl variant are you going to use? Saami Tablut? 08-08/07:42 Steiger: 15.IX - no problem 08-08/05:21 sqAree: Yes please, 15.9. is nice! 08-08/00:22 tomsavini: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 08-07/22:32 OdinHimself: I'm ok with 15.09. Hagbard. No problems at all. 08-07/20:46 Hagbard: It is such a nice summer weather now, as for Denmark we've had lots of cold days this summer, too.
Would it be an idea to postpone the beginning of the Championship a couple of weeks till, say, September 15th? 08-07/19:42 Hagbard: If the World Championship were to start now, the Round 1 groups would be:
Kratzer, Tuireann, casshern, MrTopom, DoktorKarlsrud, bigwurm91
OdinHimself, xerxes, epm180, Hagbard, Patterson, JKRS
Steiger, AreVidar, edmond-dantes, altti, Waegn, emabear35
jrton80, animals, sqAree, Thanir, Fraech 08-07/13:21 Hagbard: Welcome to Tom Savini! 08-07/11:08 Steiger: Добро пожаловать, Том! Твоё здоровье! Skl! 08-07/09:23 OdinHimself: One more viking warrior joined us today! Welcom Tom Savini from Italy! Skal! 08-07/04:20 bigwurm91: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 08-06/01:20 Steiger: @Plantagenet, do you like late Darkthrone?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4wD-ldD4g0 08-06/01:15 Steiger: But, unfortunately, it doesn't impress me anymore 08-06/01:07 Steiger: Ha ha ha! You're a horrible man, you know it?;-) 08-05/23:52 Plantagenet: Yes, I like Black Metal and other stuffs alike. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQFIpCgN63A . 08-05/22:23 Steiger: @Plantagenet Do you really like raw black metal or you just trying to shine with your wit? 08-05/17:06 Hagbard: I like Kalabalik better, it's medieval music. 08-05/16:57 Plantagenet: @OdinHimself @Hagbard What do you think about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWcFYiRWgFw ? For white or for black side of Hnefatafl? 08-04/14:12 Bulgarian Lion: Deregisters from the World Championship Tournament 2017. 08-04/14:11 Bulgarian Lion: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 08-04/13:51 emabear35: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 08-04/13:50 emabear35: Registers for the World Championship Tournament 2017. 08-04/12:14 Hagbard: 27 days registering still open for the World Championship 2017. These names are missing on the list, among others:
Herjan, Crust, Adam, Sigurd, Bigwurm91, Tonythebook, Vonraider, Fairland, Agmundr, Mykle, Aluric, Brench, Marcin, imaxuncut, Anto2016, Tamarisco, Torc, kAAgEE, Ded Fomich, cyningstan, Oddur, mmagari, Freyja, Helfrich, dayvigco 08-03/21:08 Hagbard: Hagbard won the Sea battle tafl 15x15 tournament. 08-03/01:10 Hagbard: The Skalk Lewis diamond 11x11 test tournament: as Tablut and Tawlbwrdd, but the king wins in corner.
On-line Play Links | Hnefatafl: the Game of the Vikings
- On-line Play
Hnefatafl at Jocly
The links on this page are for web sites that allow you to play with other people across the Internet (web or email). Sites with human-vs-computer or "hot-seat" play are more numerous, one the most versatile of which is the one right here on this site.
There are two different styles of play among the links below. One is "correspondence" style, where players need not be on-line at the same time, but make their moves typically once or twice per day before waiting for the other player to log in. The other is "real-time" play, where a game is played in one sitting as if sat together at the board. Since the different styles suit people's different schedules, I specify which where known.
Hnefatafl: Aage Nielsen
Aage Nielsen's web site allows you to play Hnefatafl (various rules) against other players. There is also a discussion forum, and an archive of previous games to learn from. (visit...)
Hnefatafl on Gamerz.net
Gamerz.net has a server that lets you play board games by email. It has some versatility with regard to rules and board size. (visit...)
Hnefatafl at Dragonheel's Lair
On Dragonheel's Lair, a large number of different hnefatafl variants can be played correspondence-style against other registered users on a graphical board: tablut, ard ri, brandubh, alea evangelii, and longship tafl are among the variants offered. The site also offers many other games including chess and backgammon. (visit...)
Tablut at Ludoteka
Ludoteka has a large number of games to play in real time against other users, including a variant of tablut. Ludoteka also allows you to practice at this game against a computer opponent before challenging real people. (visit...)
Tablut at BrainKing
BrainKing offers many games both classic and modern to play in correspondence mode, including a variant of tablut. (visit...)
Tablut at BoardSpace.net
BoardSpace has a hnefatafl game; though called "tablut" it allows you to choose a board size, some rule variations and to plot your own initial layout by moving the pieces around before play starts. You can play the game in real-time against other users, or practice against a computer player. (visit...)
YourTurnMyTurn offers a version of Tablut as one of over forty different games you can play in correspondence format. Their tablut version has the king winning by reaching a corner; the king being captured on four sides. There is a forum for the game there too. (visit...)
Hnefatafl on igGameCenter
You can play hnefatafl on igGameCenter in real time against other people. There are three different boards available: 25 pieces on a 9x9 board (tablut), 37 pieces on an 11x11 board and 37 pieces on a 13x13 board. All games have the king winning on exit to a corner, and being captured on four sides. (visit...)
Hnefatafl on Jocly
Jocly has a large number of board games, including multiple variants of hnefatafl on both 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional boards. The games are played in real time, and the site allows human vs. computer play without the need to log in. (visit...)
Play Tafl Online
Tafl was a board game that dominated Europe before the arrival of Chess. The game was played by people throughout the Norse and Celtic world in its many forms and was even mentioned in the sagas. In recent years many attempts have been made to reconstruct the rules. Many of the rules of these reconstructions are available here. Some of the more balanced variants are even available to be played in rated games. (visit...)
Hnefatafl rules | Nefatavl | King's table | The Viking Game
Hnefatafl rules | Nefatavl | King's table | The Viking Game | Tablut
Rules / Regeln / Règles / Regler / Правила.
Quick overview of tafl variants.
Copenhagen Hnefatafl 11x11
Damian Walker, UK, made this leaflet with the Copenhagen Hnefatafl rules:Copenhagen Hnefatafl, Introduction, History, How to Play.
Copenhagen Hnefatafl rules,Introduction to the Copenhagen rules (Tim Millar).
(Millars page about Fetlar strategy is useful for Copenhagen also).
Fetlar Hnefatafl 11x11
Fetlar Hnefatafl 11x11.Fetlar Hnefatafl rules (Fetlar Hnefatafl Panel),and here (Damian Walker).and here (Tim Millar),and here (Uig Historical Society).
Regeln auf deutsch.Règles en français.Regler på dansk.Правила по-русски.
"Old Hnefatafl": Identical to Fetlar Hnefatafl 11x11, except that the king can be captured on the board edge and thus can be captured by two attackers when on a square next to a corner.
Berserk Hnefatafl 11x11
Berserk Hnefatafl 11x11.Berserk Hnefatafl rules.
Magpie cross 7x7
Magpie 7x7.Magpie rules.
Hnefatafl on the 7x7 board was called Brandubh in Ireland and Ard Ri in Scotland, on the 9x9 board called Tablut in Lapland, on the 11x11 board called Tawlbwrdd in Wales (the Scandinavian word Tavlbord = gameboard).
Theory of Historical Hnefatafl:
The tafl games "Brandubh" (Ireland), "Ard Ri" (Scotland), "Tablut" (Lapland), "Tawlbwrdd" (Wales) and "Hnefatafl" (Iceland) are all one and the same game:the Iron- and Viking Age Scandinavian board game Hnefatafl.
Irish Brandubh 7x7Scottish Ard Ri 7x7Saami Tablut 9x9 (Linné)Welsh Tawlbwrdd 11x11 (Bell)Historical Hnefatafl 13x13 (David Parlett)Historical Hnefatafl 15x15 (Damian Walker)
Adam Bartley, Norway, made this plate with the Historical Hnefatafl rules:Historical Hnefatafl Rules for print!
Brandubh, regler på dansk.Tablut, regler på dansk.
Sea battle 9x9 (Imperial Contest)Sea battle tafl cross 11x11 (Dardell)Sea battle tafl 13x13 (David Parlett)Sea battle tafl 15x15 (Damian Walker)
Sea battle tafl.Sea Battle tafl rules,and here (Tim Millar),and here (Damian Walker).Regler på dansk.
Sea Battle 9x9 (Imperial Contest): The cargo ship cannot move more than four squares per move.
Measured tafl game balances.Measured tafl game haphazardness.
Copyright © 1998-2017 Aage Nielsen, All Rights Reserved;
Хнефатафл — скандинавская настольная игра
Хнефатафл — скандинавская настольная игра. Первые упоминания относятся к III веку н. э. Впоследствии викинги завезли её в Гренландию, Исландию, Уэльс, Британию, и Киевскую Русь (см. тавлеи). С распространением в Скандинавии шахмат (X—XI века) эта игра была забыта.
1. Могут участвовать два игрока. Один игрок играет на стороне короля, с королем и его защитниками, а другой игрок играет на стороне нападающих. Есть или восемь защитников и шестнадцать нападающих, или двенадцать защитников и двадцать четыре нападающих.
2. Игра играется на доске с 9x9 или 11x11 клеточками и с исходной позицией, как показано выше.
3. Центральная клеточка, названная троном, и четыре клеточки в углах ограничены и могут быть заняты только королём. Королю позволяется вернуться на трон, и все фигуры могут проходить трон, когда он пустой. Четыре клеточки угла враждебны ко всем фигурам, что означает, что они могут заменить одну из этих двух фигур, принимающих участие в захвате. Трон всегда враждебен к нападающим, но к защитникам - только, когда он пустой.
4. Цель стороны короля состоит в том, чтобы переместить короля в любую из четырёх угловых клеточек. В этом случае - король убежал и его сторона выигрывает. Нападающие выигрывают, если они могут захватить короля прежде, чем он убежит.
5. Ходят по очереди, при чем сторона нападающих ходит первой. Все фигуры передвигаются на любое количество свободных клеточек по ряду или колонке, как ладья в шахматах.
6. Все фигуры, кроме короля, захвачены, если они являются зажатыми между двумя вражескими фигурами, или между вражеской фигурой и вражеской клеточкой, по колонке или ряду. Две вражеские фигуры должны или быть на клеточке выше и ниже или на клеточке налево и направо от подвергшейся нападению фигуры. Фигура считается захваченной, если западня закрыта движением противника, это значит, что своей фигурой можно походить между вражеские фигуры противника. Захваченная фигура удалена с доски и больше не активна в игре. Король может принимать участие в захватах.
7. Сам король считается захваченным, как все другие фигуры, кроме тех случаев, когда он стоит на троне или на одной из четырёх клеточек рядом с троном. Когда король стоит на троне, нападающие должны окружить его со всех четырёх сторон. Когда он находится на клеточке рядом с троном, нападающие должны занять все четыре ближайшие клеточки, кроме трона.